Game of Thrones/ASOIAF Discussion

[La Femme Fatale]

This is a continuation of our very off-topic discussion in another thread. I know it's a bit weird because it's starting in the middle of a debate, but feel free to post about anything GOT related.

With unjustly I mean, in a moral sense... if that explains it? Like, the Lannisters are mostly evil (honestly with Tyrion, Myrcella and Tommen being exceptions), and they are amazing politicians and great at manipulating the game, so to speak. If we were to leave everything to the law that the Lannisters know very well how to use to their advantage, then all the ''injustice'' would be justified. I mean... I don't really know how to explain it I hope you understand where I'm trying to get at here...

Like, if Tywin and the Mountain were executed by King Robert as was the law, then Oberyn would have still been alive, and both he and the entirety of House Martell would have gotten the closure they needed for Elia's rape and murder (as that of her children). But it all worked in Tywin's favor instead, and Elia's justice was never served, and therefore by law Oberyn's death was unjust.

I see what you're saying, and I definitely agree that no justice was served for Elia and the Targaryen children. My focus really has only been on the particular circumstances of that trial.

But yeah, you're right regarding the Starks, I got a bit too clouded there I guess. I still like Ellaria though, although I feel like you changed your mind about her because at first she was shown as ''one of the good guys'', which then in your eyes led to disappointment as you believed Myrcella didn't deserve to die (don't take me wrong, I don't think she deserved to die either). But yeah, it is important to remember that George R.R. Martin never intended there to be ''good'' and ''bad'' guys. That's what so beautiful about the characters; they're so complex you can barely label them.

I don't think my dislike of Ellaria in the fifth season is because I'm unhappy that she became a grey character. That's one thing I love about Game of Thrones, and my favourite character is Jaime Lannister who is about as grey as they come. My problem with Ellaria is that her behaviour and character development is a bit absurd. I get that there's a deep-rooted hatred between the Martells and the Lannisters, and I understand why the Sand Snakes would want to avenge their father's death. But Ellaria knew full well that it was Oberyn's choice to gamble with his life. She knew he wasn't being forced to do it. I know grief can make you do crazy things, but it doesn't make people repeatedly try to kill an innocent teenage girl who had nothing to do with anything just to avenge your lover. I think it shows how poor not only her character development is, but her character is as well. Given - this could just be the writing - I was not a fan of the entire Dorne subplot. I kinda felt like I was watching a cheap action movie and not Game of Thrones.

Not to mention, she didn't even kill Myrcella in a way in which it couldn't be traced back to her. So - she sent a boy who is, for all intents and purposes, her nephew back to King's Landing right into the hands of the most powerful woman in Westeros who's daughter she just murdered. Great plan, lol.

I have read up into a Storm of Swords and bits and pieces of the next two. I remember reading briefly about Ellaria but not so much, but I did find this quote from the book that has a much stronger version of Ellaria:
“The time is ripe.” Obara tells Ellaria.
“Ripe for what? To make more skulls?” Ellaria turns to the Doran. “They will not see. I can hear no more of this.” Areo Hotah is sad to see her go. She is a good woman he thinks.
Lady Nym says, “I know she loved our father well, but it is plain she never understood him.”
Dorans gives her a curious look. “She understood more than you ever will, Nymeria. And she made your father happy. In the end a gentle heart may be worth more than pride or valour.”

Oberyn said they don't hurt little girls in Dorne. We see that from book Ellaria, but not show Ellaria. I just don't feel she's complex in the show at all. She becomes a cookie-cutter villain who doesn't have all that much strength of character. She's super hot though.

 

[JaguarsSoul]

I don't think my dislike of Ellaria in the fifth season is because I'm unhappy that she became a grey character. That's one thing I love about Game of Thrones, and my favourite character is Jaime Lannister who is about as grey as they come. My problem with Ellaria is that her behaviour and character development is a bit absurd. I get that there's a deep-rooted hatred between the Martells and the Lannisters, and I understand why the Sand Snakes would want to avenge their father's death. But Ellaria knew full well that it was Oberyn's choice to gamble with his life. She knew he wasn't being forced to do it. I know grief can make you do crazy things, but it doesn't make people repeatedly try to kill an innocent teenage girl who had nothing to do with anything just to avenge your lover. I think it shows how poor not only her character development is, but her character is as well. Given - this could just be the writing - I was not a fan of the entire Dorne subplot. I kinda felt like I was watching a cheap action movie and not Game of Thrones.

I have to be honest, especially with the last line, I could not agree more. Rest assured that that's not how it feels like in the books at all; Dorne is one of my favourite places in Westeros, and so is House Martell one of my favourite houses. GRRM has a way of writing things and plotting things out that few others can copy, the HBO writers definitely not being one of them. They've... honestly made a cheap situation of what was more political and ambition driven rather than mere revenge (because easy to read scenes is what sells I guess).

Oberyn said they don't hurt little girls in Dorne. We see that from book Ellaria, but not show Ellaria. I just don't feel she's complex in the show at all. She becomes a cookie-cutter villain who doesn't have all that much strength of character. She's super hot though.

Exactly. I love Ellaria, I really do. The shows really did her great injustice, I think we can agree on that. I mean, I finished the books only after I finished the show, but boy is it a completely different storytelling on its own. In fact, there are some that have decided to wait for Winds of Winter to get released first and read that before watching season 6, and then there are some more that won't watch season 6 at all. I will though, for the sake of visuals, but yeah that's about it...

 

[meg5493]

Should I go back and watch season 5? I started when it first came out but I heard they changed and took out a lot of stuff i like in a feast for crows and a dance with dragons

 

[JaguarsSoul]

Should I go back and watch season 5? I started when it first came out but I heard they changed and took out a lot of stuff i like in a feast for crows and a dance with dragons

To be honest, at this point I watch the series only for the visuals and nothing more. Watch it, but don't expect too much of it story wise.

 

[La Femme Fatale]

It certainly has its weak points, but I think it still has value besides just visuals. If you stop comparing it to the book and think of the series as its own universe, separate from the books, it's still perfectly enjoyable.

 

[JaguarsSoul]

To be honest, it's more than just ''uhughrugh this isn't the same as the Bewks so i Hate it hugrhugrhg''. There are very subtle changes in the show that is very irritating for someone that's read the books (and has their eyes wide open, so to speak). Have a look at the topic section of this blog, and you'll see what I'm talking about (scroll down a bit). Like, GRRM certainly hasn't created a very socially aware realm. But the sexism/racism/ableism/homophobia that he included is so openly barbaric and cruel, and the victims of these deeds so obviously affected by them, you can't see them as ''that's just how it is'', so to speak. Whereas in the show, this is definitely not the case. Like someone said:

''The plotlines don’t even hold up under a very basic level of scrutiny. Characterizations are either erratic, or boring as sin (Tyrion is always right. Jon is always right. Bad guys are SUPER BAD. Yay.). There’s no moral ambiguity. The dialogue has grown increasingly cringe-worthy, and the situations have grown increasingly anachronistic too (Bronn faces no legal repercussions for assaulting the heir of Dorne, the magically disappearing patriarchy because Olenna is sassy, etc.).

Like actually, it’s just that there’s no internal logic. There’s people warping all over the place, there’s Arya magically knowing to cross Tywin off her kill list, there’s Dany’s dragons being as trained as the plot demands, there’s Ramsay Sue’s 20 Good Men…suspension of disbelief is just out of the question here.

Every “twist” is utterly cheap. Then the **** that’s supposed to titillate us, like the sex scenes, are hideously unsexy. Overall I’d argue the show has a major “darkness induced apathy” problem too. Should we root for the rapist flayer or the dude who burned his daughter? Plus this is the world where Jon Cardboard will get stabbed by his asshole brothers for doing nothing wrong because everything sucks. Their idea of levity is Doran making a joke about soup, but no one is ever actually nice to each other. Why should we care about this place?

And, of course, this show is absolutely, insidiously offensive. I talk up my “sexism & s5″ series a lot, and that is all dissecting the show in and of itself. There’s the orientalism in their approach to Dorne or Deadpan’s white savior complex which was NOT “fixed this season” as some critics asserted. Then the whole homophobic strawmen thing, while simultaneously stripping Loras down to nothing but his sexuality. And isn’t it so much wackier if Jaime’s golden hand stops a sword rather than like, idk, an intimate examination on how he adjusts in a toxically ableist society? Which yes, perhaps isn’t a criticism that would be accessible to me without the books as a framework, but the fact is, his trauma (and everyone else’s) was just completely glossed over.

So like, I actually can’t think of anything to recommend the show in its own right. The characters aren’t there, the plots aren’t there, and the only theme that is constant is “everything sucks and you should feel bad.” ''

But enough about this. You want some quality discussion material? Let's talk about who Azor Ahai could be :3c

 

[Lord Varys]

It certainly has its weak points, but I think it still has value besides just visuals. If you stop comparing it to the book and think of the series as its own universe, separate from the books, it's still perfectly enjoyable.

This is good advice.

The Walking Dead is a great example of this. Daryl ( who isn't even in the comics ) is the one with the biggest fanbase. So breaking away from the source material can work every now and then. Plus TV lets us put a face or a backdrop to some characters and scenes that books can't.

I watch the show because it covers all the bases for me...the genre, era and simplicity of it all allows me to enjoy it.

I personally love the indirect rivalry between Baelish & Varys. They are without doubt the most deadliest people in the game.

The sex doesn't bother me, its a part of life.

I rarely get heated on tv shows etc, I just accept them as entertaining amd enjoy them for what they're worth.

 

[La Femme Fatale]

To be honest, it's more than just ''uhughrugh this isn't the same as the Bewks so i Hate it hugrhugrhg''. There are very subtle changes in the show that is very irritating for someone that's read the books (and has their eyes wide open, so to speak). Have a look at the topic section of this blog, and you'll see what I'm talking about (scroll down a bit). Like, GRRM certainly hasn't created a very socially aware realm. But the sexism/racism/ableism/homophobia that he included is so openly barbaric and cruel, and the victims of these deeds so obviously affected by them, you can't see them as ''that's just how it is'', so to speak. Whereas in the show, this is definitely not the case. Like someone said:

''The plotlines don’t even hold up under a very basic level of scrutiny. Characterizations are either erratic, or boring as sin (Tyrion is always right. Jon is always right. Bad guys are SUPER BAD. Yay.). There’s no moral ambiguity. The dialogue has grown increasingly cringe-worthy, and the situations have grown increasingly anachronistic too (Bronn faces no legal repercussions for assaulting the heir of Dorne, the magically disappearing patriarchy because Olenna is sassy, etc.).

Like actually, it’s just that there’s no internal logic. There’s people warping all over the place, there’s Arya magically knowing to cross Tywin off her kill list, there’s Dany’s dragons being as trained as the plot demands, there’s Ramsay Sue’s 20 Good Men…suspension of disbelief is just out of the question here.

Every “twist” is utterly cheap. Then the **** that’s supposed to titillate us, like the sex scenes, are hideously unsexy. Overall I’d argue the show has a major “darkness induced apathy” problem too. Should we root for the rapist flayer or the dude who burned his daughter? Plus this is the world where Jon Cardboard will get stabbed by his asshole brothers for doing nothing wrong because everything sucks. Their idea of levity is Doran making a joke about soup, but no one is ever actually nice to each other. Why should we care about this place?

And, of course, this show is absolutely, insidiously offensive. I talk up my “sexism & s5″ series a lot, and that is all dissecting the show in and of itself. There’s the orientalism in their approach to Dorne or Deadpan’s white savior complex which was NOT “fixed this season” as some critics asserted. Then the whole homophobic strawmen thing, while simultaneously stripping Loras down to nothing but his sexuality. And isn’t it so much wackier if Jaime’s golden hand stops a sword rather than like, idk, an intimate examination on how he adjusts in a toxically ableist society? Which yes, perhaps isn’t a criticism that would be accessible to me without the books as a framework, but the fact is, his trauma (and everyone else’s) was just completely glossed over.

So like, I actually can’t think of anything to recommend the show in its own right. The characters aren’t there, the plots aren’t there, and the only theme that is constant is “everything sucks and you should feel bad.” ''

But enough about this. You want some quality discussion material? Let's talk about who Azor Ahai could be :3c

Nothing against you obviously as you didn't write that blog post, but man, I can't stand reviewers who have nothing good to say about anything and yet keep watching. This person has clearly disliked the show for some time.

I agree with a few things - like there is a 'darkness induced apathy', but how in the world can this person argue that no one is actually nice to each other or that there aren't characters to root for? Jaime and Brienne have one of the most meaningful relationships I've seen on TV in a very long time. I don't know what's wrong with Tyrion and Jon - they both are smart, insightful and intuitive characters and she is complaining that they are right too often? They've both made mistakes - Jon ****ed up royally by not explaining clearly to the Night's Watch the true threat of the Army of the Dead. He's not perfect by any stretch..

And furthermore, I don't think the show is homophobic or sexist AT ALL. GoT takes place in a time where women are second-class citizens and gay people can't be open for fear of their lives - why do people expect the 2016 'westernized woman' to show up? You simply can't take today's standards of equality and apply them to a society that is supposed to take place during the middle ages. This is, for all intents and purposes - a historical period piece. Women weren't treated well and that is just a fact. It certainly doesn't mean that the show runners are sexist and homophobic. Not to mention Game of Thrones has a very large roster of powerful women. And I don't even know how they can argue it's racist because there is very little mention of race and the characters - for the most part - reflect their book counterparts.

I think the problems with season 5 are threefold: a) Nothing really happened in the House of Black and White - we spent far, far too much time on a rather stagnant plot and it seemed like the main purpose of it was to get as much time out of the Jaqen H'gar guy as possible. 2) As I said before, Dorne felt like a cheap action movie - the Sand Snacks weren't as badass as the show runners thought they were and so many scenes featuring them were flat-out unnecessary and c) Tywin was such an enormous presence in the show and the show suffers from his absence. Yes, Tywin was a bad dude but there was human side to why he did the things he did. As much as I hated Joffrey, both he and Tywin were compelling to watch. Ramsay is just so over-the-top evil, and I can't stomach torture so I dread his scenes and I think many people do as well. I think these were the main problems with season 5.

 

[JaguarsSoul]

I believe they meant it in a way that the characters on the show are just too different than the characters in the books, but yeah there isn't much to discuss about that anymore. But either way, in regards of the sexism/homophobia/etc, in the books those elements are very openly discussed about and not veiled at all. Today's western society is still heavily sexist and homophobic, aside from other -isms and -phobias. This is all veiled, however, to the point where some would deny the existence of these problems. They're very subtle, and does things to you as you grow up (as part of a minority). And that's exactly how it is in the shows. Not open and barbaric like they are in the books, but very subtle and veiled like it is in today's society, which now is serious (I mean, aside from the barbarism they included in the shows from the books; in the books this subtlety is not included and I love GRRM for that).

But yeah, the rest is just a matter of opinion, and everyone is entitled to their own. I mean, I have my own set of ''trashy'' interests; Telltale's Game of Thrones is so much worse than anything, and arguably the worst game Telltale has ever produced so far. But yet I love it, if not for the story it has to tell then for the characters. And then there's Warrior cats... let's not even start there lmao

But yeah! What do you think about Melisandre's introduction of ''a new religion'', and R'hllor and Azor Ahai and everything? There's a good amount of theories and speculations regarding this, and honestly talking about it is so much more interesting than talking about whether the books are better than the shows and vice versa (although we might accidentally spoil ourselves to the end of the series but yeah).

 

[La Femme Fatale]

I'm going to assume people are aware that this thread will probably have lots and lots of spoilers, lol.

I think Melisandre's religion is the only religion that we know to be true or at least have some sort of legitimacy. I don't think Melisandre is necessary the greatest prophet and she's been wrong quite a few times, but we know that R'hillor has the ability to bring people back from the dead (Beric Dondarrion, Catelyn Stark, *coughJonSnowcough*) which gives it far more credibility than the Seven, or the Drowned God or any other religious deity that has been mentioned.

As for Azor Ahai, I think it's most definitely Jon Snow, although you can make just as strong a case for Daenerys as well. I think that the words 'reborn amidst salt and smoke' should be taken literally - not just Azor Ahai reborn, but having been reborn themselves (I hope that makes sense!). Daenerys and Stannis weren't actually physically reborn in the strictest sense of the word at all. It's pretty unquestionable at this point that Jon will be reborn again - there's probably going to be some fire and some crying - there's the smoke and salt. Not to mention Melisandre indicates that when she looks in the fire for Azor Ahai, she keeps seeing Jon, which I don't think is insignificant either. If he is Rhaegar's son, which is highly likely at this point, then he most definitely comes from the line of Aerys and Rhaella (their grandson) and also has the Blood of the Dragon. A lot of these same points can be said for Daenerys, but I don't think the fact that Melisandre sees Jon when she looks in the fire for Azor Ahai is insignificant.

This point also might be a little silly, but hear me out. GRRM sees Jon Snow as his 'Frodo' character - it's not a coincidence that Jon has friends named Sam and Pip - this was intentional and I don't think his references and similarities to Lord of the Rings will end there. Frodo was the only person who could destroy the ring and by that extent - destroy Sauron. Azor Ahai is the only person who can destroy 'the Others'. I see Daenerys as more of his version of Aragorn.

 

[JaguarsSoul]

That's honestly what a lot of people think, and understandably so. Jon, being the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, has some legit Targaryen blood in him, which is significant (it's not just for the laughs and gigs that Melisandre at first sided with Stannis; the Baratheon brothers had a Targaryen grandmother after all, meaning they shared the royal dragonblood that seems to be of high importance, meaning that Stannis, too, fitted the bill). And indeed, same can be said of Daenerys.

However, personally I believe this would be too easy and too simple, seeing as how GRRM loves to turn a twist in his plots here and there. Actually, someone once said that Ser Jorah is actually Azor Ahai! We can easily say that he, too, was ''reborn amidst smoke and salt''; his beliefs and loyalty changed very much when he saw Daenerys still alive the next day. He even admitted before that he wasn't truly loyal to her, and that he truly began to root for her after that event, hence the reborn bit.

And then there's Lightbringer, the sword that had supposedly helped Azor Ahai defeat the Others. When forging the sword, Azor Ahai spent thirty days and nights on it, and when he tried to tempered it with water, it broke. Then he tried to forge another sword again, this time taking fifty days and nights, and this time he tried to temper it by capturing a lion and piercing it through the lion's heart. This didn't work either, yet he worked on a third sword for hundred days and nights and this time unfortunately he pierced the blade through his beloved wife's heart. It worked, and Lightbringer came to be, and the Others were inevitably defeated.

The person that theorised of Ser Jorah being Azor Ahai not only said that he, too, was reborn during that event, but that ''is of the blood of the dragon'' doesn't necessarily mean that the person has to have Targaryen blood in order to be Azor Ahai. When killing someone or something with your sword, it is implied multiple times that the soul of that person/being combines with the steel of the sword. Daenerys' dragons aren't the tamest creatures in the world; they have lashed out at her multiple times already. And at this point we just know that Ser Jorah would slay one in order to protect her (maybe Viserion?). That settles the dragonblood bit.

And then there's the whole thing with Tyrion. Azor Ahai had captured a lion during the making of Lightbringer, and this can just as easily be Tyrion of House Lannister. And honestly, I don't think Jon could love someone as much as he loved Ygritte, and Ygritte is dead. At this moment Daenerys doesn't heavily love anyone either, but Ser Jorah has done a lot of things for her multiple times, for no reason other than his love for her. It's creepy that a man of Ser Jorah's age could love a girl that was 14 when it all began, but whatever. This is sad to think of, but the person who theorized all this said that for Lightbringer to come again, Ser Jorah will have to pierce his blade through Daenerys' heart, just as Azor Ahai did with Nissa Nissa, and all that jazz. You can find the whole theory here.

I hope this theory isn't right because I wouldn't want to see neither Tyrion nor Daenerys die, although there are still many possibilities, however convincing this theory is. For one, Ser Jorah only captured Tyrion, he did not kill him. And if you were to say, ''well he didn't kill him just yet'', then I'll say that Tyrion is smart enough to not put himself in grave danger. If he will be forced to side with Daenerys against Ser Jorah for some reason, and if Ser Jorah gets cross with him as a result, then there's enough other people to kill, like Ser Barristan (he's still alive in the books), Grey Worm, Daario Naharis, her bloodriders and co. I can't see why he should target Tyrion among that lot, but yeah ASOIAF is filled with plot twists and other surprises, so who knows.

And then there's the whole thing with there having to be three dragons mentioned by maester Aemon before, and maybe this might imply that whoever will be Azor Ahai come again, that they will need two other companions in order to do the work. If Ser Jorah isn't the one and Daenerys won't have to die for Lightbringer, then it's likely that both Daenerys and Jon will be part of the three.

Got I love this series :')

 

[La Femme Fatale]

Jon and Dany are clearly the ice and fire in ‘a song of ice and fire’, and this series has unquestionably been the combination of their stories. I would put money on Azor Ahai being one of them, because I think Azor Ahai is too significant a character to be anyone but Jon or Dany.

You mentioned that both these choices would be too predictable for GRRM, but I don’t think that’s necessarily true in Jon’s case. Remember - GRRM started writing this series before we had internet forums, chatrooms, and the like where fans could gather together and spend endless hours theorizing about who the second coming of Azor Ahai is and who Jon Snow’s parents are - and furthermore, exposing those theories to more and more people. It’s sort of a snowball that gets bigger and bigger and GRRM is a pretty old fashioned guy who probably didn’t anticipate the amount of dialogue and discussion and critical analysis his books would spark. He very clearly intended to lead his audience into believing Dany is Azor Ahai - she is the only one who satisfies the requirement that Azor Ahai will ‘waken dragons from stone’ and she meets all the other requirements perfectly. But yes, GRRM hates predictability, so she could very well be a red herring so that people don’t suspect Jon until much later - which is what happened. Jon as AA and R+L=J wouldn't be this predictable if readers weren't able to talk about it. We haven’t seen Jon’s rebirth yet, although it appears to be inevitable, and it seems plausible to believe it could fit the ‘reborn amidst salt and smoke’ quite well. Not to mention Jon is the only character remotely concerned with defeating the White Walkers right now.

Likewise, I don’t think the Nissa Nissa character has to necessarily be a woman he loves - it's the person he loves best in the world. Should he need his own Nissa Nissa, it's likely to be Arya or Bran who he probably loved better than Ygritte anyway.

I feel like fitting Jorah Morment into this role relies a bit too much on metaphors to make it stick. I mean, sure, you can say that Jorah will have to slay one of the dragons to be ‘of dragon blood’, but that’s a bit of a long shot. The wood’s witch indicated that AA will be of Aerys and Rhaella’s line. No amount of stabbing dragons will make Jorah related to the Mad King - only Dany, Jon, and Aegon satisfy that. And sure, you can say that Jorah’s vow to Dany is a rebirth of sorts, but it’s not a physical or literal rebirth and I think it’ll require GRRM to do quite a bit of explaining in his narrative to make Jorah=AA work well. It's a really interesting theory, but I think it's a bit too metaphorical.

 

[JaguarsSoul]

For one, I love you for your reply. It seems enough to debunk that theory, which I wanted to happen because seeing Tyrion and Dany die? That'd be too much for my poor heart.

But seeing either Bran or Arya die? Dude... Either way perhaps you're right, I don't know, I certainly hope not, but I don't know. I guess we'll see about that as the story progresses. I know for a certainty that both Bran and Arya will be involved in the fight against the Others; Bran is already beyond the Wall and it has been talked of how Arya will eventually meet Daenerys, someone that people think will also aid in the fight against the Others (Jon even once said that a dragon or three would help the Night's watch a great deal; he wasn't too serious about it and thought of it more in frustration, but the way GRRM specifically wrote ''a dragon or three'' should be noted here).

And then there's the entire thing with ''the dragon having three heads''. If, say, Daenerys will aid the fight against the Others with her dragons, she will most likely be riding Drogon. Then what about Rhaegal and Viserion?

If they'll be ridden too, then it's highly likely that those riders will have to be Targaryens as well. Jon could be one of them, and with some theorizing about him being actually a Targaryen, Tyrion could be the other too. It would make sense story telling-wise as both Jon and Tyrion are major characters, but I have my doubts about that theory of Tyrion's parentage to be honest. But no doubt that both the entire prophecy with this Azor Ahai and the whole deal about the dragon having three heads is of importance to the story.

 

[La Femme Fatale]

Well, if young Griff is truly Aegon, than the three riders prophecy works quite effortlessly - Daenerys, and Rhaegar’s two (secret!) sons. Like you, I don’t believe the conspiracy theories of Tyrion being a secret Targaryen, either. That’s a bit too convenient and the only reason for it to happen is to fit the prophecy - I think GRRM is too skilled a storyteller for that.

As for Bran or Arya dying, I think that Bran is end-game, but Arya is most definitely not. Arya’s story and primary driving focus has been to get very ugly and very violent revenge on the people who have wronged her, her family and friends. I think the whole point of her storyline is that revenge is fruitless and will only destroy you, and I don’t think she’ll make it to the epilogue once she crosses off everyone on her list. She’ll die with them. If Jon even needs a Nissa Nissa substitute (remember - they could possibly find Lightbringer and in that case, him killing the person he loves best isn’t even necessary), I think it’s far more likely to be Arya than Bran because Bran’s powers are too useful and Arya can’t do anything at this point but destroy and look like someone different, which probably won't help against WW. Not to mention Jon gifted Arya with Needle, a sword, before he left - he didn't give anything to any of his other siblings.

 

[JaguarsSoul]

I haven't given that a thought, but now that you mention it, it does fit in quite well! And I agree completely with the Tyrion bit to be honest, there isn't really much to talk about him. It simply wouldn't really slip through Tywin if Tyrion were not actually his; after his wife's death, the man has become as emotionless as you can get lmao.

And I see... rest in peace my sweet child... I am curious though as to what will become of her direwolf Nymeria and her entire pack. Like, she can warg into her no doubt, whether she's conscious about it or not. Surely that will be of significant importance, making Arya's destiny a bit more interesting than crossing everyone off her list and then dying herself at the end of it? I've read somewhere that, now that Jon is ''dead'', Ghost will have a larger role to play in season 6, and thus in the 6th book (I presume). Some say that Jon will be able to ''live through'' Ghost or something, although I don't know how much water this holds to be honest. But I am certain that we will be following Ghost, for a while at least, and maybe this can also mean Arya will have more things to do than to dedicate her life into killing those who have wronged her and her loved ones O:

 

[La Femme Fatale]

Tywin would know flat-out that Tyrion wasn't his if Joanna didn't birth him, and there's no way he would have raised Tyrion if Tyrion wasn't a Lannister. Tywin has no particular loyalties to Aerys or Targaryens in general - he would not have raised an 'imperfect' son had it not been his own blood.

I think Jon is going to be flat-out resurrected by Melisandre in the same way Lady Stoneheart was by Beric Dondarrion. Perhaps missing part of himself - but still relatively whole. I think a big part of why they chose not to use Lady Stoneheart was because bringing both Jon and Catelyn back after being killed would make their deaths a bit cheap. You can do it once because we know magic exists, but bringing back two main characters is a bit overkill.

But who knows - Ian McShane said his character will bring a big character back from the dead - could be Jon or Catelyn.

 

[JaguarsSoul]

To be honest, then they've made a poor choice about that because GRRM is an excellent writer and the way ASOIAF goes, nothing happens for no reason. Lady Stoneheart is a character of huge importance, I mean someone who was formerly Catelyn Stark can simply not be shoved aside like that; as the story progresses she will be vital to it and I hope the HBO writers will be smart enough to bring her to the table then instead of making up a character of their own (which would be disappointing to be honest, I mean, the weird decision to not include Jeyne Poole and as a result have Sansa Stark marry Ramsay Bolton was disappointing enough). Besides, resurrection wouldn't make their deaths ''cheap''. I'll directly copy-paste this person's blog-post because it's written very well:

''One, it’s another, even more dramatic demonstration of how resurrection is not a reset button in the ASOIAF universe, or a “get out of death free” card. Once you die, you start to lose what is - was - inherent to your person, and you don’t get that back no matter how quickly you get resurrected. We saw that a little with Beric - poor Beric had died so many times that he no longer remembered his parents, or his fiancée, or anything beyond his mission and the small band with him. But we see that even more starkly - heh - with Lady Stoneheart. Catelyn had been in the river for three days when she was found and Harwin begged for Thoros to resurrect her; Beric succeeded, at the cost of his own life, but so much had decomposed of Catelyn’s former personality that she really is not the same person anymore. All of Catelyn’s warmth, her motherliness, has disappeared: now she embodies vengeance and hate against those who slew herself, her son, and her companions in gross violation of guest right. As I think it likely Jon will be resurrected, we shall see if his personality changes as well: he did have a potential “save spot” in Ghost, but I think death will change him at least a little, as it changed Beric and Catelyn.

In a more thematic way, Lady Stoneheart is another vehicle for the author to demonstrate the dangers of vengeance. What happened to Catelyn and Robb and their host was grossly unjust - we can all agree on that, I think. I would say that many, perhaps a majority, of the fandom wants the Freys to suffer for the Red Wedding; speaking for myself, I know I’ve seen quite a few questions in our own queue about “when the Freys will get their comeuppance” or “when the Freys are going to get it”. So when Lady Stoneheart first appears, we might cheer, we might say “Hell yeah! Get those guys!” We don’t feel a lot of sympathy for people like Petyr Pimple, or Merrett Frey, or Ryman Frey - we know they were at and connected to the Red Wedding - so it is natural to sympathize and root for instead the force of vengeance, Lady Stoneheart. Looked at a certain way, it’s almost like a (more violent) version of “the North remembers”.

But therein lies the problem. Stoneheart is not a force of justice, but a force of vengeance, and vengeance does not follow a system of law and order, evidence and appeal. Vengeance seeks to hurt those in any way connected to those who hurt the vengeful - even if those people did nothing wrong themselves. Brienne, young Podrick, Hyle Hunt, how were these people responsible for what happened to Catelyn and Robb? Brienne argues for Jaime as a changed man - an argument many readers might agree with, having seen inside his head - but Stoneheart doesn’t want to hear it. She is out for blood, for anyone with a tangential connection to the Red Wedding, and she is willing to kill anyone to achieve that end - even the woman who was her faithful sworn sword. Just like Nymeria Sand, who would see Tommen dead to satisfy her sense of vengeance at her father’s death - though the boy had clearly nothing to do with Oberyn’s death - Lady Stoneheart is a warning to the reader against the temptation of vengeance. We can feel hurt and angry at what are very terrible crimes, but where does that feeling end?''

To be honest, the moderators who run this blog are amazing, you should check them out.

 

[La Femme Fatale]

I really like Lady Stoneheart and I think it's disappointing that they've cut her from the show, but I do question how 'vital' she is to the end-game. You simply can't fit everything in the books into 10 hours per season so you have to choose what's most important and what translates the best to the television medium. For all we know, Lady Stoneheart could have been screened in focus groups but didn't survey well. I sort of feel like Lady Stoneheart exists mainly to drive a wedge between Jaime and Brienne (or kill them). Sansa hates Jaime and would probably have the agency to take over this role in the narrative.

I love Jaime and Brienne though - they're like, my favourite thing about ASOIAF. Apart from Cersei because she's just fun.

 

[JaguarsSoul]

Man let's talk about Cersei for a bit. I love it how I at first hated her, but eventually realized that she did all that she did to ensure her children had a safe future. She loved Robert at first, but imagine the love of your life on top of you in bed and then he whispers the name of another woman- a dead woman at that- in your ear. Anyone would hate the person that did that to them.

And then, Robert showed his true colors, so to speak. Cersei was in an abusive relationship, in my opinon. She was constantly belittled, even next to others. Not to mention about the bruise Robert gave her in front of Ned.

Like, I still dislike Cersei because she in her turn abused others too, Tyrion and Sansa especially, two characters I love dearly. But I can also understand her. Like, who wouldn't want to keep their children safe?

Not to mention about the whole shame walk...